Warburton red card

[Old lock]

Excerpt from Michael Burgess in the New Zealand Herald

"Warburton hit the diminutive winger with his full force, elicited cheers from the crowd. He drove him backwards but - maybe as a consequence of the slippery surface - seemed to over balance which caused him to lift Clerc above the horizontal.

It was not a spear tackle but it was dangerous and merited a penalty and a yellow card. Instead the collective wisdom of Alain Rolland and his assistants Wayne Barnes and Johnathan Kaplan - three of the most officious, pedantic men on the world refereeing scene decided it warranted instant dismissal.

The Welsh and neutral spectators reacted in disbelief - most had assumed it was a yellow card, until the replay confirmed the decision.

From then on the crowd - and the game - fell flat as everybody realised that World Cup semifinals cannot usually be won with 14 men. Especially when the missing player is your captain and pivotal forward."

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What a load of crap.    I'm surprised they didn't call in "Dick Head" Woodward and BOD (He could have died) for consultation.

It's too bad when a championship match is determined by little men with illusions of grandeur and out sized views of their own importance. I'm not for dangerous play, but the match should be won on the field by the players, not by some twit with a whistle.

[ROAMER]

Hear hear... 10 min.. Sort it next week at the judiciary .. Red card no way!

How the he'll did France end up in the final ???

I hope we put 50 points on them next week!

[Gil]

spear tackle is red ...written in IRB rules ...

[ROAMER]

Wasn't a spear though..

He lifted him then dropped him.. He didn't drive him into the ground

Definitely a yellow.. And the have had lots of these that haven't even been looked at.. Yet this one

Rolain is half French .. Isn't he? :)

[Penny]

I am in two minds, part of me thinks, well if rules are rules, then they should be followed.  But then the other part of me thinks that he was punished for 62 minutes of the game, and if the same tackle had happened later in the game then its different.

But then I think its part of the discipline side of it that if you are a professional you need to watch your self.

you see I really don't know.

But you do think "what oculd have been" if it had just been a yellow.  Maybe the welsh would have made it to the final.  Maybe they wouldn't have.

[ROAMER]

It's an enigma.. Aye penny :)

[Strathen]

I'm with Gil on this one. With the benefits of a slow motion replay you can see Warbarton disengage from the tackle when the player is just above the ground. In real time it wouldn't have looked like anything except a spear tackle. It's a straight red.

This rule is there to protect necks and keep people out of wheel chairs. The message is simple, take someone beyond the horizontal, intentionally or unintentionally, and your fate is not in your hands, and in this this case, neither is the fate of your team. We can't have one set of rules for normal rugby games, then relax them in the final series of the RWC.

I don't believe for one second Warbarton was intentionally trying to spear, nor that he was trying to hurt the French player, just attempting a dominating tackle that would've sent a clear message to both the opposition and his team mates if it had come off. If he hadn't taken the player beyond the horizontal, it would've ben a game defining moment for the Welsh. As it was, it went the other way.

[Old lock]

Here come the sea lawyers!     And, it's NOT a question of relaxing the laws. It's a question of common sense. Frankly, I don't favor either Wales or France as a supporter. The case in point did not result in injury, was a first time occurrence, and early in the match.

Steve Walsh gave Estebanez (France) a yellow for a similar tackle against Tonga earlier in this RWC. (Which seemed reasonable to me.)  The judicial hearing overturned this ruling and suspended Estebanez until after the RWC. (He cannot play in the final.)

The Judical Officer cited the following "memorandum" from Paddy O'Brien.

23. In this context I must have regard to IRB Memorandum, subject Dangerous Tackles which was issued to Referees, Citing Commissioners, Judicial Officers and Non-Legal Judicial Committee Members on 8 June 2009 and circulated to Member Unions on 10 June 2009 (the ?June 2009 Memorandum?). It supplements IRB Law Ruling No5 of 2005 and was issued by Paddy O?Brien, IRB Referee Manager and Tim Gresson, IRB Judicial Panel Chairman. It summaries three ?possible scenarios when a tackler horizontally lifts a player off the ground?. The three scenarios, in descending order of gravity are:
a. ?The player is lifted and then forced or ?speared? into the ground. A red card should be issued for this type of tackle?
b. The lifted player is dropped to the ground from a height with no regard to the player?s safety. A red card should be issued for this type of tackle.
c. For all other types of dangerous lifting tackle it may be considered a penalty or yellow card is sufficient.?

The Officer found the video conformed to "b" and suspended Estebanez, reversing Walsh's "on the pitch" (and sensible) decision. Law 10.4 (j) (Foul Play-Tackle) itself only provides for a penalty kick.

Clearly, the Warburton tackle fell into scenario "c" and should have been treated as such, instead of irreversibly impacting the outcome of a Championship match.

In any case, this (memorandum) is just another example of bureaucratic law embroidery without broad consent from the Unions and the Players. It's why no one understands the breakdown and many other laws today, as there is such a mass of backdoor law created by O'Brien and his Dublin mates. And, as I said earlier, it just gives pea brains an opportunity to ruin the game.

Click on link to see complete citing decision.

http://www.irb.com/mm/document/tournament/mediazone/02/05/69/51/111003jodecisionfabriceestebanez%28france%29.pdf

[Strathen]

I disagree Lockie. This law and high tackle laws are there for safety and cannot be compared to breakdown laws which consistently change in the attempt to move the game from an offensive to defensive (and vice versa) flow of game.

When it comes to necks in a game with over-powered human beings, there needs not to be a grey area. They have to be strict to ensure the message is clear that even coming close to breaking a neck, even if unintentionally, is not acceptable.

It seems that Steve Walsh didn't penalise harsh enough, hence why the extra ban was enforced. If anything the Steve Walsh example is an example of how not to do it, or rather, how to incorrectly apply the rules in a match.

I see Warburton had his suspension reduced from 6 weeks down to 3 weeks by the judiciary, citing many circumstances including remorse and a good record, as a couple of them. He's out until November 7th.

[Old lock]

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.  I am interested in safety as well. But, injury can occur at any time in any phase of the game. I had a team mate who broke his leg with no one within 30 meters by simply making a sharp cut. It ruined his career in the NFL as a result and cost him many $$$.

What happens in a tackle is the result of many factors, including the size, body position, angle of approach, speed, etc., etc., of both players. Not to mention the condition of the pitch and actions of other players etc., etc. Therefore, the resulting movement of the players needs to be viewed with this in mind. That's why I say common sense needs to be applied on the park, rather than something defined by old guys sitting in an office 5000 miles away.  BTW Walsh also binned a Tongan for a similar tackle infraction, and nothing has been said about that.

You're not going to convince me on this one, as I see it as spurious issue, which probably came from Woodward, BOD, The RFU, and other Euro Control types.  But then, I'll have to admit I'm not totally objective. And, for example, I still don't think "crouch-touch-hold-engage" has reduced scrum neck injuries. (It just means locks have to stay packed down and push longer, while half backs and the Ref screw around.)

[ROAMER]

It was not a spear tackle.. period!

He did not drive him into the ground.

He did lift over horizontal, but let him go.. thus did not spear him into the ground.

It was a yellow, not a red, and considering as strath pointed out, with the benefit of technology, a slowmotion check would have quickly established this..

The ref could then hand out the yellow, and the judiciary hand out any other penalty as required.

In a game that is so important, the the team, indeed to all teams AND countries involved.. it is ludicrous not to use this technology, and make it FAIR for all!

Massive fail, by not using it, massive fail handing out a red card.. we all want to save necks, but this would not have altered the tackle or saved anyone.. it was just a stupid decision.

[patto]

At the time I thought the RED was a little harsh. It appeared to me that Warburton did not intend malice but neither did he attempt to soften any impact. Since the game I have been made aware that the penalty for lifting above the horizontal and then releasing is a RED card. That may be tough but it is the sanctioned penalty. Ref was correct, like it or not

Similar tackles in previous games met with long arm penalties and in at least one case a Yellow. I guess those refs were wrong. Oh for consistency.

[Gil]

I agree patto but laws are made to protect players ...you can break a neck doing such a tackle..I am pretty sure warbuton's tackle was not malicious but you have to protect players...estebanez should have been redcarded..in fact he is banned untill the end of RWC..it's officiously the same. IRB must limit things in rugby because you always know players play with limits all the time...sorry for warburton.

[patto]

Gil, I would never condone any tackle that causes damage to the head. I had a severe headache for 30 years caused by head knocks. Until the laws are enforced consistently dangerous tackles will continue.

[Gil]

Hear hear... 10 min.. Sort it next week at the judiciary .. Red card no way!

How the he'll did France end up in the final ???

I hope we put 50 points on them next week!

we are wondering the same down here you know ...

[ROAMER]

Just for reference Gil .. We are down here and u are up there :)

I have no doubt the French team will come out playing the best for this final .. After all they are in the final representing the northern hemisphere

[Strathen]

Warburton admits he deserved red card
Full article below, but this excerpt sums it up:

Immediately after the semi-final, Warburton believed he'd committed "a normal tackle." But on video review he'd changed his mind.

"I have seen it played back, the tackle is a lot uglier than I thought it was at the time," he said.

"When I looked at it on the replays it looked worse than I thought it was."
....
"At the end of the day the IRB said if you lift up a player and drop him it's a red card, and that's exactly what I did," Warburton said.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10763817

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You have to respect the guy for this. Not many people are open minded enough to change their opinion once shown a different perspective, he has. Warburton's character is top quality and I now hold him in absolute top regard (previously just 'high regard').

[ROAMER]

It was one of at least 20 tackles just as on the edge.. He was hard done by.. NONE of the other tackles throughout the RWC were even noted.. They did put tighter a film clip and ran it on sky.. There Were lots of them.

But it is a bit like saying, "why didn't you stop the other cars" when you are caught speeding by the cops.. Ithe response will be "t's not the point.. We caught YOU!!"